63. Getting to know ILADS with Sarah Quillen

In this podcast we speak with Sarah Quillen, executive director of the International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society, and ILADS sister organization, The International Lyme and Associated Disease Education Foundation. Sarah received her Masters in Public Affairs from University of North Carolina and is a Certified Fundraising Executive. With over 25 years of experience in the healthcare arena, including fundraising, public relations and program development, Sarah is building on the important work that ILADS has done over the years to support researchers, clinicians and their patients. 

Ticks in the neighbourhood

Sarah was raised in upstate New York, and grew up with ticks in her surroundings from a young age. She learned more about Lyme disease when her father was bitten by ticks on several occasions and developed Lyme disease. This experience brought to the forefront the difficulties that people can have in getting the proper diagnosis and treatment for Lyme disease. Through her professional network she learned about an opening at ILADS and took on the position of executive director last year. In this role she has taken on a variety of responsibilities in order to ensure that organization runs smoothly. 

ILADS mission

ILADS has been around for 25 years, and Sarah explains that their mission is to improve awareness, education and research for Lyme disease and other complex inflammatory infections. She explains that the signature offering for clinician education is the Vector-borne Illness Fundamentals course, which is offered at the annual scientific conference and online as well. In this course clinicians can learn about the different kinds of ticks, the diseases they carry, and about the testing, diagnosis and treatment of those diseases. 

“ILADS is a nonprofit international multidisciplinary medical society…dedicated to the diagnosis and treatment of Lyme disease and complex inflammatory diseases.”

Sarah J. Quillen, MPA CFRE

In-person and online options

For clinicians who are interested in online learning opportunities, ILADS has online courses, monthly webinars and access to previous scientific conference modules. For those who are looking for an in-person learning environment and the opporuntiy to network with other clinicians and researchers, Sarah recommends the ILADS annual scientific conference. 

“The first signature offering we have is the vector borne illness fundamentals…And if you are interested in learning about tick borne illness, this is the right the way to go because it lays out the what kind of ticks there are all the different kinds of ticks and all the different diseases that they carry…And we include all of that in the care of the patient and the vector borne illness fundamentals really gets into that.” 

Sarah J. Quillen, MPA CFRE

ILADEF for a deeper dive

Sarah talks about the ILADEF mentorship program that is available as well. In that program, clinicians spend a week (or more) with an experienced preceptor for more in-depth learning. She explains that mentorship is fundamental to ILADS. Sarah also points out that there is some funding available to support clinicians financially. 

Big data project

In terms of research, Sarah explains that ILADS is involved in a big data project aimed at drawing upon large amounts of clinical data in order to better understand Lyme disease. She also explains that people can find research articles on their website.

 “ILADS in our mission, research has always been a part of it. But I think we’ve, we’ve been quietly doing it behind the scenes. And I feel like that, that day has passed, we need to invest in research. And we need to bring it to the forefront.”

Sarah J. Quillen, MPA CFRE

ILADS Annual Scientific Conference

Sarah attended the ILADS conference last year and talks about what it was like to be there and learn from seasoned clinicians and researchers. Attendees have the opportunity to attend sessions that relate to their practice, explore abstracts, network and ask questions directly to the presenters at the conference. In addition, Sarah points out that conference material is also offered online after the conference is over. 

“As part of this (ILADS) conference, we record every session, because we realize, when you have two or three tracks going on at the same time, it is impossible to get to all, all of them. …if you’ve attended the conference, in person, you have access to all of those recordings online. If you didn’t get to attend a conference, then you, of course, can purchase the whole conference, you can purchase what sessions you are interested in, we really kind of curate that experience for you to make it the most valuable for you.”

Sarah J. Quillen, MPA CFRE

Collaborations are key

Sarah emphasizes the importance of collaborating with those who have shared interests in order to create change. Those collaborations can be with other health associations and groups both in a general sense and in working on specific projects such as webinars. She explains that one of the benefits of being an ILADS member is to collaborate with other clinicians. For those living in the US, ILADS also has a list of clinicians who are currently treating Lyme disease. Sarah refers listeners to the ILADS website to learn more about what ILADS has to offer, including all of their online courses. Thank you Sarah for filling us in the role ILADS plays in supporting clinicians and their patients.

“I’m a huge proponent of collaborations and partnerships. And, and I’ll, I’ll use CanLyme as an example of that. I’m hoping to be able to see what, what comes out of conversations and what gaps are there that ILADS can help fulfill, and vice versa. CanLyme has been, I mean, you guys have been around for a number of years. And you are again, in the trenches doing the work throughout the continent, and how can, how can ILADS help you in those kinds of things.”

Sarah J. Quillen, MPA CFRE

Transcript

Catherine Kinsella: Welcome to Looking at Lyme, an educational podcast of the Canadian Lyme Disease Foundation, designed to increase awareness, empower listeners with expert knowledge and explore solutions. I’m Catherine Kinsella.

Sofia Osborne: And I’m Sofia Osborne

Catherine Kinsella: In this podcast we speak with Sarah Quillen, executive director of the International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society, and ILADS sister organization, The International Lyme and Associated Disease Education Foundation. Sarah received her Masters in Public Affairs from University of North Carolina and is a Certified Fundraising Executive. With over 25 years of experience in the healthcare arena, including fundraising, public relations and program development, Sarah is building on the important work that ILADS has done over the years to support researchers, clinicians and their patients. 

Sofia Osborne: Welcome to the podcast Sarah

Sarah Quillen: Thank you so much for having me. I’m very excited to be here and talk about ILADS and hopefully see what we can do to work with CanLyme more.

Sofia Osborne: And so first, could you tell us about how you became interested in Lyme disease?

Sarah Quillen: Oh, absolutely. So as you just heard, in my bio, my background has been all in the nonprofit sector in the health and human services, mostly in hospice, and palliative care and end of life care. And I actually became interested in Lyme, many years ago, I grew up in upstate New York, surrounded by ticks for my entire life, and didn’t really think much of it until my father, bit by a tick, and luckily for us, was able to get tested quickly and got the typical antibiotic treatment and everything was great. And fast forward another year, he got to begin fast forward another year. And so five times he’s had Lyme disease over the years. And the last time was kind of the unfortunately typical story that you, that I’m sure you all have heard of undiagnosed or misdiagnosed, and went for a long time with the wrong treatment or no treatment, and finally got the right care, and, I feel like still has a little bit of long Lyme. I know that’s a controversial topic to talk about. But I know he’s still dealing with some of the effects of that on an ongoing basis. 

And so through my professional network, I learned about this position and learned about my predecessor retiring and they’re doing an executive search and kind of submitted my resume and went from there and had a fantastic interview process where I actually got to know both ILADS and ILADEF boards and really got into a lot of the details of it. And I’ve now been there a year, as of February, it’s been a year. And I think we’re making some great strides. So that’s the long version.

Catherine Kinsella: And what is your role then at ILADS.

Sarah Quillen: So as Executive Director, I wear a lot of hats. We are a small but mighty team, we only have a handful of staff here at both organizations. And so really my, I see my role as I’m not the clinician, but I bring a business acumen. So I am the duck swimming underwater, getting all the administrative things, make sure everything’s running smoothly, but also be able to steward the needs of our members and of course from the ILADEF side our donors and make sure we are being responsive to the community and serving those educational research needs that are out there of clinicians who are in the trenches caring for patients.

Sofia Osborne: For listeners who haven’t heard of ILADS or ILADEF, could you tell us you know who you are and what you do?

Sarah Quillen: Oh happy to, happy to. So actually this year we are in our 25th year so we’ll be celebrating our 25th anniversary. And so we, ILADS is a nonprofit international multidisciplinary medical society. And we are, we’re dedicated to the diagnosis and treatment of Lyme disease and complex inflammatory diseases. So as you know, that includes all kinds of other illnesses, co infections, beyond I would say just Lyme disease. We promote awareness, we do education, we do research. We support all manner of medical clinicians, physicians, MDs, DOs, naturopaths, scientists, researchers, everybody under the heatlhcare spectrum who’s dedicated to defining and advancing this high standard of care.

Catherine Kinsella: I know there are a lot of education programs through ILADS and ILADEF, what’s a good place for clinicians to start when they want to know more about vector borne illnesses?

Sarah Quillen: That’s a great, well immediately go to our website, and you will get a whole host of information at ILADS.org. But I will say, for members or for I would say ILADS curious, the signature offerings that we have, and the first signature offering we have is the vector borne illness fundamentals. It was created in 2013. And we update it every year, and it’s a pretty intensive workshop. We do it on site at our annual scientific conference, there’s a virtual option that you can download on demand. 

And if if you are interested in learning about tick borne illness, this is the right the way to go because it it lays out the what kind of ticks there are all the different kinds of ticks and all the different diseases that they carry, we kind of half heartedly joke that ticks are nature’s dirty needle, and they have hundreds of diseases that they carry. And we go into every one of those. There’s there’s modules that go into the diagnostics and the testing and the identification. And then probably most important, it goes into different modes of treatment. And ILADS includes allopathic and naturopathic training. I always want to make that clear, because I think that is, that’s a misconception that people have about ILADS. We have a large cadre of folks that really go the naturopath route. And we include all of that in the care of the patient and the vector borne illness fundamentals really gets into that. 

Beyond that we have a pretty robust learning website that has on demand webinars that we do at least one webinar every month, and they’re open to members and non members. Obviously, it’s a member benefit, they don’t have to pay. But if you’re not a member, we do charge a nominal fee to keep our, keep the lights on so to speak. And they’re those topics, run the gamut of all topics and like I’ll give you an example. We just hosted a seminar on mold and toxicity. So folks who are treating patients with that, that’s a, it’s a perfect entree into that topic we go into all kinds of different very specific things that again, go back into disease and into treatment protocols and things like that. The biggest part and this I’ll, I’ll talk about this probably multiple times, we have an annual scientific conference that we do every year. In 2024, we will be in San Antonio. And, again, there’s plenty more information on our website. But if you really want to get down deep into learning this, the scientific conference is really the way to go.

Catherine Kinsella: And kind of mentoring opportunities are available?

Sarah Quillen: That’s another great opportunity. And one of our signature offerings, we have a physician’s training program that we offer. And that is hands on shadowing, there’s a whole number of hours, 30 hours that the trainee would go with a preceptor and we actually have a lot of our trainees do multiple times with the preceptor, which is really kind of cool. They find that they, they’ve maybe, they’ve spent a week with the preceptor in the office, hands on seeing patients learning the ropes, and it’s never enough, they come back. And of course, you’ve built that relationship with that preceptor and who of course, is one of our ILADS leadership. But that’s probably the best thing. 

And we need to change the name in my opinion, because it’s not just for physicians, we have DOs and NDs that also are a part of that. I will say as a prerequisite to be part of that program, you do need to have completed the fundamentals program, which like I said, that’s our initial signature offering. I’m hoping that we’re going to be able to do more, more of those kinds of hands on training, because I think that’s where it’s at. I think that’s really one of the great opportunities that ILADS can offer. We have this fantastic membership roles of folks who have really been in the trenches doing this work for years and new practitioners coming in or maybe just new practitioners to this community can really learn a lot and so a lot of those opportunities we want to be able to build on.

Catherine Kinsella: And are those mostly in-person mentoring opportunities?

Sarah Quillen: They are mostly in person, although we do, because we are international, and we’re in over twenty something countries, we know that it’s not always feasible to get from country to country, we try to make every effort to help help the trainee and preceptor connect in person at least once. But then there is always the opportunity of virtual. And I’ll put a plug in here at this point. On the  ILADEF side, I know I’ll talk hopefully a little bit more about that in a minute. But there, there are opportunities that we offer through the Education Foundation to help cover some of those expenses. Because we know it’s expensive, to take time off of your busy schedule to spend time shadowing with a preceptor. And then also, we want to make sure that you have the best experience possible. And if travel is your only inhibitor, let’s try to help make get that out of the way so that you can experience that.

Sofia Osborne: And so could you talk a bit about the different ways that ILADS is involved with research?

Sarah Quillen: Oh, that’s a great question. So interestingly, ILADS in our mission, research has always been a part of it. But I think we’ve, we’ve been quietly doing it behind the scenes. And I feel like that, that day has passed, we need to, we need to invest in research. And we need to really, really need to bring it to the forefront. And I will say also, as a caveat, we do work with some of the larger organizations that are already doing great research. There’s plenty of academic institutions, and some of the private foundations that are doing some phenomenal research that ILADS members are a part of. And actually, I know that you all have interviewed some of them, which has been fantastic. 

So a couple of things that ILADS offers. So on our websites, we have, again, a robust website full of academic articles and research that our members are doing. So I always want to put a plug in for that. If folks are just curious to see what is out there and what kind of research has been done, we really try to update that on an ongoing basis and showcase that because that’s, that’s some fantastic research that our members have done. But from the ILADS side, we’re actually embarking on a, we’re kind of internally calling it a big data project, we need to come up with a better name than that. It’s not necessarily big data. But we are wanting to gather data from all these clinicians who are again in the trenches doing, doing the work of patients, and bring them to a clearing house so that ILADS members and outside, are able to draw on some of that patient data to be able to do further research. 

So let us be the clearing house, we’ve got the number of patients, we make the information anonymous, so nobody has to worry about what patient is doing what, and be able to offer that, so folks will have the most robust, organic data to be able to do their research. That’s really I think we’re the niche that ILADS can fit in on that. It would be great eventually, if we, once we build our roles to be able to do our own research, our own clinical, clinical trials and our own clinical research. But I feel like this is really where we can fit in. We have the members, we have the folks who are serving patients, let’s, let’s be able to compile that data to be able to send out to folks.

Catherine Kinsella: Yeah, it’s so important to get that patient data into some research studies and make some sense of it. I wanted to ask you, what is it like to attend an ILADS conference?

Sarah Quillen: Ah, it’s a lot. I actually went to my first in Boston in October 2023, in my first year at ILADS, and again, I’m not a clinician, and it was mesmerizing. And I know that some of these folks, I mean, we’re we have we’ve got some of the most accomplished trailblazers in this community coming to speak and do presentations. And it is three days of just intense learning. There’s, there’s multiple tracks at any given time. There’s, we started the conference off with our fundamentals course. So if you’d never come and you want to be on site, this is the way to do it. And then three other days of presentations, learning, we offer CEUs CMEs for this so we want to make sure that folks are getting everything that they can out of it. But in our title, I want to stress this It’s an annual scientific.  And so we really, I know that the term cutting edge is probably been used too much. But we really try to see what is new out there, we have a pretty robust, and I know I’ve used that word quite often, but we have a pretty robust program committee that sorts through in abstracts that folks put in, and if it doesn’t hold, if it doesn’t hold the sniff test, it doesn’t get past this committee. So there’s, there’s a whole approval process that goes on behind the scenes to get this annual scientific conference, to the caliber that we think it needs to be. 

So the result is, like I said, a pretty intense several days of learning. And then in between that I see the value of networking because oftentimes, clinicians and scientists, you’re again, you’re in the trenches, you’re, you’re you’re in the minutia of this work, it’s nice to be able to exit out of your office for a moment, right? And network with colleagues and clinicians, just on a on a general level. But also, it’s another opportunity to, to learn and to ask questions, hey, I’ve got this patient that is presenting with this, and it’s, it’s kind of stumped me. And I just learned about methylene blue, how do I how do I implement that to my patients, and it really offers clinician to clinician, one on one time, networking time, and it offers that additional, that additional reward I feel like from being there in person. The other thing I want to stress too, as part of this conference, we record every session, because we realize, when you have two or three tracks going on at the same time, it is impossible to get to all, all of them. And it’s just exhausting. So we do, we do make those recordings available. And if you’ve attended the conference, in person, you have access to all of those recordings online. If you didn’t get to attend a conference, then you of course can purchase the the whole conference, you can purchase what sessions you are interested in, we really kind of curate that experience for you to make it the most valuable for you.

Sofia Osborne: How many people usually attend the conferences?

Sarah Quillen: So last year, we had I think about 400 true attendees. And of course, when you add in exhibitors, and speakers and things it that number bumps up, but you know, it’s been interesting, I’ve been looking at the years prior to my coming, and some of the conferences have been quite large double that, and then some and then COVID, of course, and we’re building back up, my hope is that when we get to San Antonio in November for the 25th annual scientific conference, that will, our numbers will, will be much higher, again. And I think that is predicated on, again, placement within geographically to make sure the most people can attend from the west and east coast and hopefully, from Canada, and internationally, as well as offering a really good agenda that people want to come and attend and be part of this experience.

Catherine Kinsella: I’ve heard so many positive comments about people that have attended the conference in the past and, and just that networking opportunity and face to face contact. As a person who’s had a personal experience with Lyme disease in the past, what has been like for you to work with some of the world’s top experts in Lyme?

Sarah Quillen: Well, again, I feel like we’re sitting on the shoulders of giants here, there’s, there’s some amazing, it’s always nice to put faces with names that I’ve heard over the years. And again, coming from upstate New York, I’ve heard you know, several of these names over the years, and it’s just amazing to be able to work with them. And quite honestly, to that they’re all down to earth. I mean, you know, this is where you can, you can fan girl as much as you want on some of these folks, but they’re still, they’re still clinicians active in, in seeing patients. And so you really do have to pull back and go, oh, well their bedside manner is just phenomenal. Well, of course it is because they’re, they’re seeing patients but it’s great to have that balance of wow, there’s just some amazing knowledge and amazing training that has happened over the years from some of these folks that it really, it’s just been fantastic. 

But the other thing I want to point out is, on the flip side of that we have so many new clinicians coming into this community that that’s energizing as well to me. I mean when you have younger folks who, who have maybe been members for a couple of years, but they’ve, and they’ve gone through fundamentals and the training and such. And they’re just now feeling confident enough to submit an abstract for, you know, presentation or they’re publishing an article. And you see, the next generation, I guess, would be really coming up and expanding on that knowledge, learning from it and expanding on. I think that’s kind of, that’s kind of the cool next thing to see, like, let’s, let’s see what’s next coming from both sides of that. So it’s, it’s a, it’s been a really great experience, especially coming from, again, not a clinician to be able to meet and talk and learn and learn so much from these folks.

Sofia Osborne: And are there any new projects I led to working on that you can share with our listeners?

Sarah Quillen: Sure. So I think, because our mission is includes education, that’s such a key component of it, we are always looking to expand opportunities, and like I mentioned, the physicians training program, we want to be able to expand that out beyond, beyond the physician, beyond the MD, let’s let’s incorporate other levels of it. We’re always looking for new, new on-demand learning, new webinars. I’m a huge proponent of collaborations and partnerships. And, and I’ll, I’ll use CanLyme as an example of that. I’m hoping to be able to see what, what comes out of conversations and what gaps are there that ILADS can help fulfill, and vice versa. CanLyme has been, I mean, you guys have been around for a number of years. And you are again, in the, in the trenches doing the work throughout the continent, and how can, how can ILADS help you in those kinds of things. 

And so as an example, we work with MAPS, the Medical Academy of Pediatrics special needs in terms of collaborative education. We brought them in for a pediatric track in the 2023 conference, we’re going to do it again in 2024. We we are regularly trading opportunities for learning. And I want to be able to do that with. more with more medical societies with more associations with more organizations out there. ILADS is fantastic, but we know we haven’t cornered the market. So let’s, let’s see what’s out there and learn from each other. And one other example that we are expanding our webinar learning our online learning is Project Lyme is doing several webinars over the course of several months. And rather than reinvent the wheel, ILADS is just partnering with them. And let’s showcase their talents and have their speakers on and then we’ll be able to share that wit, with our membership and beyond. And it just all, all those things helped to help to, raise the raise the awareness and raise the education level of clinicians as well as the general public.

Catherine Kinsella: Yeah, I’m noticing a lot more collaborations going on in this field. I was going to ask what, how does a clinician become a member of ILADS? And what is involved with that, like, what do they get for being a member?

Sarah Quillen: Absolutely. So again, as a, first and foremost, as a medical society, membership is always first for us. And so it’s, it’s a great process to be a part of, there’s obviously an application that you put in, and we check all of your all of the licensures and, and all their clinical background things. Our membership director will actually interview that individual. And there’s some basic questions. You know, why do you want to join? What are you interested in? What education would you like to see things like that, and then, then our membership committee is the one that really approves those folks. But it’s a pretty rigorous, pretty rigorous process, we try to make it quick and painless. But it you know, and again, it’s basically making sure that we have the, the right kind of mentality that wants to be in, in this kind of community learning. 

And so, to be a member, we want to, we’re always looking for ways to make that more better for you. So I mean, obviously like I’ve mentioned, education is the key to that. So as a member, one of the member benefits that you get right off the bat is access to all the webinars that we have all that education.  There’s discounts obviously on coming to the conference and those kinds of things. And then one of the best things I think, is our internal members only forum. And this is a member to member internal chat that folks can use. And it’s a great opportunity for helping to diagnose and treat patients. Again, this is the opportunity where someone can can post, hey, I have a patient that’s presenting with these things, you know, I’ve tried this, this and this, what do I do and let other ILADS members weigh in and help. And it, all of that is to provide the best care for that patient. And it’s, it’s really, that’s one of the awesome things to see that go back and forth to see some of these conversations happen. And it’s a wonderful opportunity to showcase knowledge and new emerging trends and emerging, emerging therapies. And then we do what we can to make sure everybody is informed on what’s going on in the policy land. Obviously, we’re not an we’re not an advocacy organization, but our members are often doing a lot of things in their own state organizations, as well as on our nation’s capitol. And so we at least want to report on all those things that are happening. And again, making sure folks are staying up to date on new therapies and things like that. So those are the, that’s the quick version of all the benefits.

Catherine Kinsella: Then can people access a list of clinicians that are ILADS trained?

Sarah Quillen: Yeah, that’s, that’s another great opportunity, actually, both internally and to the public. So there’s two different things. So as a member, you have the opportunity to search other ILADS members for referral or for, for asking a question and such. And we offer that internally. To the public though this is kind of cool, we offer a provider search. And I know there’s, there’s several of those out there in the world. And this is the one that offers to ILADS members. And we put that out, if you can just go to ILADS.org, there’s a corner button that you can just click on provider search. And you can search by geography, by clinical background. We’re  trying to make that a little more robust and actually get into a little more specific data in terms of pediatrics or psychiatry or specialty knowledge on, on specific diseases. But it’ll showcase if the member is how long they’ve been a member of ILADS, if they’ve completed the various different trainings, if they’ve, if they’re a preceptor with our physicians training program, but that’s open to the public. And that’s a great opportunity for a patient who is looking for somebody either in thei,r in their geographic area, or someone who’s willing to do telemedicine to help them, that can be a game changer for them. So that’s a great opportunity for, for patients as well as for clinicians.

Catherine Kinsella: Wonderful and we can, we can provide links in our show notes for any of those programs or courses that are being offered by ILADS, and also we’re starting to post some of your webinars and other courses on our events page at CanLyme as well. So people can go there and find it as well. 

Sarah Quillen: Fantastic.

Sofia Osborne: Was there anything else you wanted to add or talk about?

Sarah Quillen: The only thing I wanted to make sure I brought up and I may have brought this up already the, on the Educational Foundation side of it, that’s really the other key component to the success of this organization to the success of ILADS. ILADEF exists to raise funds for this community. We really focus on education, research and being able to help various different projects through the foundation. But we are always fundraising, we’re always asking for donations. If there’s opportunity to, to support a clinician, it is through ILADEF, because we offer, we offer grants so that folks can, like I said, attend education, come to the conference, be able to further their education in this community. So I always want to put a plug in for ILADEF. And if you go to ilads.org there’s a donate button, it’s as easy as that to be able to give and to support the next generation of clinicians.

Catherine Kinsella: Thank you so much for all that you’re doing Sarah and everything that ILADS has done for people that have Lyme disease and it’s hard to imagine where we’d be right now without ILADS being there to support those patients that are left behind, so thank you too.

Sarah Quillen: Well and I throw gratitude back to both of you and to CanLyme, I mean this this podcast, thank you for creating this platform to be able to get information out that people probably wouldn’t have otherwise known about, and get it out in such a way that is easy to, easy to access, easy to listen to, and keep doing what you’re doing. I hope that there’s more opportunity to be able to do more of these kinds of things with CanLyme, with you guys from the ILADS side. So thank you.

Sofia Osborne: Thank you so much

Catherine Kinsella: It was great to meet Sarah and hear all about what ILADS and ILADEF has to offer and what really stood out for me was her willingness to collaborate with different organizations and different people in trying to move things forward.

Sofia Osborne: Definitely. I’d heard ILADS mentioned so much in researching everything for these episodes, and so it was really cool to just get into what they actually do, and to hear about the foundation too, and just how they’re supporting the medical community, learning more about Lyme and related diseases as well.

Catherine Kinsella: Yeah, it’s interesting even to think back about the history of Lyme disease in the world and just the different groups that are out there with different agendas, and how important it is to have different points of view, and ILADS is one of those points of view.

Sofia Osborne: Well make sure to tune in next time as we engage with more experts from Canada and around the world. Thanks for listening.